Fair Pay, Fair Play
Like journalism, PR agencies do take students and recent graduates for work experience placements. Most work placements in PR are unpaid. Keri Hudson, 20, from London has done work experience in PR before. Keri says: “I think when you do a substantial piece of work whilst on work experience, you should be paid for what you do. However if you’re just shadowing staff for a week, and getting bits of experience over a wide range of activities then you shouldn’t be paid, as you’re not really producing anything of value to the company.”
Establishing what produces revenue for a company is where the lines blur on wages in work experience. If a PR intern helps to write a proposal that lands an agency a massive retainer, but the intern remains unpaid, can that be seen as exploitation?
Determining what is fair
Michael White, a PR student from University of Gloucestershire argues that work experience interns should be paid after a certain time threshold. Michael, who is a Chartered Institute of Public Relations (CIPR) student representative says: “I have the firm view that if a company wishes for you to work with them for a year (an internship) then you should be paid. It seems completely unethical, perhaps even illegal, that you should work a 9 to 5 job without being paid.” Keri Hudson agrees: “It’s not fair for a company to offer a year’s unpaid internship, especially because of the amount of work the intern would do, and the living costs that they would come up against.”
The law
Alex Try, co-founder of Interns Anonymous, the campaign website, says: “If you work set hours, doing set tasks and are relied upon by your colleagues then you are legally defined as a ‘worker’ and should be paid National Minimum Wage. There is no legal definition of the term ‘intern’ in employment law.” The fact there is no legal definition means that industry leaders need to take the initiative to ensure that students and graduates are compensated financially in tandem with living costs.
The property market in London is one of the most expensive in the world, eclipsing centres like New York in the United States. If a student is expected to be working 40 hours a week in a placement with no pay, how can she or he afford a shared room in London, pay Oyster fares and eat with no money without calling the bank of mum and dad? The financial stress of working for no pay has created a new movement to improve the conditions for interns.
Explaining the concept behind Interns Anonymous, Alex says: “We graduated in the middle of a recession and saw entry level jobs drying up and being replaced by unpaid work”. Unpaid work in PR does include expenses, though these are generally for travel and food.
“You’ll gain experience!”
Another element of compensation used by some companies is the argument that a student is gaining experience. Michael White says: “I have heard various arguments defending unpaid internships, the worst of which is, “You get experience”. You can still get experience and be paid at the same time! I don’t know anybody in a full time job who has had the audacity to claim that they haven’t learnt anything over the years from being in their particular sector. It is illogical to think that there is a point in life when we no longer learn. I learn something new every day.”
Students and graduates doing work placements should be paid according to their circumstances. It should not be about ‘cool perks’ or the experience, it should be about acknowledging the rights of human beings to be rewarded financially for their work. The International Labour Organisation, a United Nations agency, defends the rights of people to work under healthy labour standards. The internship debate is really about labour standards, and in an industry such as PR that generates millions of pounds, can’t more than £50 quid be spared per week for interns?
#1 by Ben Cotton on 10/08/2010 - 9:50 PM
I applaud the debate that this post has generated. For me, the lack of UK-wide clarity on what constitutes an ‘internship’ – and the pay and benefits to be expected is nothing short of scandalous. It’s a grey area that some companies have been keen to exploit.
However, what does appear to be commonplace in the ‘creative’ industries is the length of time interns are expected to work for free. I know people who have ‘passed’ a months probation period, only to be rewarded with the same role for a further 5 months, but again without pay. This is completely unethical.
The wider problem this perpetuates is that our ‘creative’ industries are one of the least diverse in the UK. It seems that only middle class graduates with unfeted access to the bank of Mum and Dad can afford to work for free in order to gain that all important experience and crucial foot in the door.
If we do not start treating people fairly and equitably, we will be unable to attract people from a range of backgrounds. PR in particular has a lot of work to do if it is to shed it’s reputation (the irony) as the preserve of the white, middle classes.
I’m convinced that diversity of experience, background and culture is the lifeblood of creativity.
#2 by Kagem Tibaijuka on 10/08/2010 - 10:34 PM
Hi Ben,
Really happy to see you comment here. I think you make a great point that there is a lack of clarity that
does need to be sorted out. I would really like to see what the National Council of Work Experience plans to do about this.
I believe it is totally unethical to expect anyone to work an assistant job for anything longer than 1 month. 5-6 months doing 40 hours
a week, packing in bare hours to be part of a team that is not paying you is not really fair, but lots of employers get away
with this because the demand is so great.
Can you imagine an investment banking trainee doing 6 months unpaid with no commission? Nor can I. I think creative industries need to look hard.
I post lots of jobs on the Twitter version of vox-popPRcareers, and there are some days where I struggle to find PR roles because so many ads on Gumtree
are full of unpaid work.
It’s demoralising even just to read it sometimes.
Kagem Tibaijuka
Founder
vox-popPRcareers
#3 by Ben Cotton on 10/08/2010 - 9:51 PM
Please ignore/delete my comment at 9:46 PM it was submitted in error.
#4 by Josh Wheeler on 10/08/2010 - 10:23 PM
Hey Ben,
I just graduated and during my time at university I conducted a couple of unpaid internships. I don’t believe I should have been paid, what I gained in experience and understanding of the industry was worth more than the odd thousand pounds here and there.
If companies were forced to pay I imagine the agencies I worked for would stop their intake. I know that the internships I took, although tough because I balanced them with university work, got me the entry level position I have today (of which I just finished probation a month early probably because of the skills I had already learnt)
I believe that yes it would be nice to be paid, but if it was to run the risk of companies cancelling their internships then I would rather work those months for free again. My advice to those thinking about undertaking an internship is to get in early whilst you are at uni and (generally) have a student loan to fall back on and utilise it to the max. If you can’t be bothered, or feel you are being ‘done over’ by not being paid you have the wrong attitude altogether.
Josh
#5 by Kagem Tibaijuka on 10/08/2010 - 10:38 PM
Hi Josh,
Thanks for your comment. I am really happy to hear you are taking such an active role in pushing your career forward
so that is great. And congrats on your position as well now. However, one part of your comment struck me:
This is wherein lies the problem. As businesses, I do think agencies/companies need to be aware that there has to be some sort of payment and they should budget accordingly. I don’t think it is healthy to start a whole business on the premise of getting free work because that’s how the industry just is.
I have a feeling once bigger agencies like WE or Burson pay for placements, most agencies will follow suit.
Even £800 is really fair IMO for a placement. Money does motivate most people and I think it’s fair for young graduates full of ideas to be remunerated accordingly.
#6 by Josh Wheeler on 10/08/2010 - 10:51 PM
Personally, I think that businesses shouldn’t have to pay. Yes of course our ideas get filtered through and in some senses we are almost used a free labour. But the connections made, skills and investment in you is huge.
I just turned down the graduate scheme I did my placement at, would they have even considered me without working there for a month? I doubt it.
I do agree that it would be nice to be paid, but on the other hand you don’t get monetary payment you gain in many other ways.
#7 by Edd on 12/08/2010 - 11:29 AM
Touché, Josh.
Issuing a blanket statement like “interns should be paid” (or, “should not be paid”) demonstrates a firm misunderstanding of how labour works.
Interns are no different than any other employee of a company. Sure, they’re generally less educated and less skilled than full-time employees but they’re workers nonetheless.
No employee should choose to work for any less than they are willing to. YOU, the worker, decide how much your time and labour is worth to you. If an employer isn’t willing to pay that much for your time and labour, you shouldn’t work for them. It doesn’t matter whether your job title is “Intern” or “Senior Manager”, this rule applies.
Likewise, if a company is unwilling to pay prospective interns, they’re not going to have a very effective internship program and they’ll have to pay someone else to do the gruntwork instead.
I’m very glad you said “shouldn’t have to pay” instead of “shouldn’t pay”. It’s the choice of the company whether or not to pay, and it’s the choice of the prospective employee whether or not to work. A higher paying company will also attract the best, brightest interns – a company paying too much for their interns will see a poor ROI. That’s how the job market operates both for students and seasoned veterans.
Saying either “interns should be paid” or “interns should not be paid” pompously suggests you want to affect the equilibrium of trade. The fair statement is “interns should be paid however much they want to work for, and however much their employer wants to pay them”.
Oh, and for the record: I’m currently an Intern myself at a large software company so no, I’m not just ‘hating on the kids’.
#8 by PR Star on 27/08/2010 - 10:58 AM
Most interns actually do entry level work anyway so I would say it is fair to pay them.
#9 by Sarah on 10/08/2010 - 11:02 PM
Hi Josh,
I see that you were able to do your internships while still at Uni. I think this is one of the only times in which companies can get away with not paying interns. While I do not really agree with unpaid internships as a whole, I can see that if a student is able to fit in work during studies while they already have anther source of income eg, student loan, then it will be easier on the student.
However, what about during the summer. The majority of internships that take place at this time want full time hours from you and leave no spare time to get a paying job. As work experience is essential in this industry I do believe that companies take full advantage of this knowing that they will be able to fill their internship positions easily. The graduates and students that take up these positions generally work very hard with the hope of getting a job at the end or at the least a good reference. I believe that this in turn is pretty much exploitation.
I would like to see more companies offering at least minimum wage for interns and perhaps a slightly different structure for internships during the term time.
#10 by Kagem Tibaijuka on 11/08/2010 - 12:49 PM
Hi Sarah, I agree that there needs to be lots more structure and definitely at least minimum wage.
#11 by Nafisa on 11/08/2010 - 11:11 AM
Hi,
Firstly, Thank-you all for the debate and the interesting comments.
Personally I think interns should be payed atleast a minimum wage. Recently I underwent (with 4 others) a PR internship with Northern Lights PR, Harrogate. We were all payed for the 3 week programme- this meant that as well as gaining the experience (we did projects with Hallamark, Northern Rail & Bradford University and met many PR specialists for masterclasses-this included directors of well known companies) we were also paid- which does help with things such as travelling costs, food and most importantly can help as a motivational factor- especially if your doing 12 hour days!
Many interns take part in an internships to gain experience- they understand that they do not have the experience that someone who has spent, say 5 years, in the industry and so they offer to do it for free or at a very minimum wage. For those that are taking the initiative to try and work it seems slightly unfair that they are punished for doing so.
Also, many companies get funding for taking on an intern, so surely it is the professional thing to let the intern also get some share of it.
#12 by Kagem Tibaijuka on 11/08/2010 - 12:49 PM
Hi Nafisa, Completely agree. I do think each person is worth something and paying is fair.
#13 by Scott Freeman on 12/08/2010 - 12:21 PM
Nobody is forcing interns to do anything. Offering an unpaid internship is exactly that, an offer. You can take it or leave it. It’s hardly unethical to put out an offer for a voluntary arrangement. Generally speaking people only enter into things that they know will make them worse off because 1) they are mentally ill or 2) they are stupid. Given that most interns have passed at least one year of university we can probably exclude those two possibilities leaving only one: unpaid internships make the people who choose to take them better, not worse off. If they made them worse off they wouldn’t do them, just as the vast majority of people do not choose to jump off bridges or set themselves on fire. How can it be unethical to accommodate someone in a way that makes them better off?
Requiring firms to pay interns would have only one effect: to reduce the number of internships available. Since interns take internships, unpaid and otherwise, because they make them better off, reducing the number of internships available would make (would-be) interns worse off, not better.
Some interns do warrant a wage, which is why there are many paid internships available. Many do not, however. To make a law saying that all interns must be paid is to prohibit firms from employing all but the most desirable interns. This hurts the people who want internships, and it also damages firms who would very much like to take on interns, but are banned by law from doing so.
You might object that all interns DO warrant a wage. Clearly they do not, however. Imagine John Smith is in his second year of uni and wants an internship. Firm A offers him an unpaid internship. John is willing to take the internship because he may get a paid job at the end of it, or if not then at least something good to put on his CV. If John warranted a wage i.e. had a net worth to firms of more than zero, Firm B would prefer that they got John as an intern rather than Firm A. Not only would they prefer to have him, they’d be willing to pay John something to induce him to come work for them instead of for Firm A. How much? Well if John is going to make them £50 a day, and it’s going to cost £10 a day to train him, supervise him, provide him with a computer, desk, chair, email account, parking spot etc etc, then Firm B would be willing to pay him up to £40 a day. Of course, they’d try to get away with just £1. But Firm A wants him, so they’d offer £2, and so on and so forth until whoever finds John the most valuable is able to outbid the other. Of course in real life firms skip most of the lower numbers since they can predict what their competition will do to some extent, and often there isn’t actually any literal bidding but the mechanism at work is identical.
But if John gets offered zero and nothing more, what does that tell us? That John’s net worth to the firm is zero. Nobody is willing to pay £10 to get £0 so if you make that the law, John doesn’t get an internship and he’ll wish he had.
#14 by Kagem Tibaijuka on 13/08/2010 - 4:14 PM
Anyone who is doing significant work deserves to be paid.
#15 by Anon on 24/08/2010 - 8:10 PM
Hi Scott,
I’d just like to point out that some degrees (like my own) require a compulsory placement year in order to pass their degree. I’m currently struggling to find placements because most are unpaid and with being given only half my loan for a placement year and no other financial back-up I just can’t afford to live. If it’s not that, then a lot of placements require some previous experience for you to be selected for interview. Short term internships are even less likely to pay, so it’s difficult to even get that bit of experience.
There’s more to it than “nobody forcing interns to do anything”.
#16 by Kagem Tibaijuka on 25/08/2010 - 11:20 AM
Anon, thanks for posting, I totally agree that making students live off their loans is just wrong.
#17 by Scott Freeman on 26/09/2010 - 6:01 PM
Anon,
Who forced you to take that degree?
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